Credit Card Processing: The Many Ways (good and bad) It Effects Your Business
A discussion with co-founder of Delta Payment Solutions Ben Levitan
049 - Ben Levitan
Ben has extensive expertise in Corporate Development. Ben led Due Diligence and M&A for over 20 years, starting with Cambridge Technology Partners. At Cambridge Technology Partners, he led the acquisition of three companies in the U.S. and Europe. At IQT, Ben worked with 20 + VC and PE investors, executing nearly a dozen transactions, and participated in multiple exits.
As a Business Coach, Ben has drawn on his experience and expertise to advise and curate Fund Raising for companies in various stages of development. Notable transactions include: Coordinating the sale of Carbon Black to Bit 9, and DBR 360 to GTT Communications.
Ben attended the London School of Economics and earned his BA from Union College. He is an avid motorcycle rider, bicyclist and is married with three children.
Talking Points
- What you need to know about your processor before it’s too late
- What it means to be a “high risk” business and why it shouldn’t matter
- Doubling profit could mean trouble for your business – here’s why
Connect with Ben Levitan
John DeBevoise:Greetings everyone and welcome to another serving of Bizness Soup Talk Radio. If it’s in business, it’s Bizness Soup. I’m your host, John DeBevoise. From the Delta Payment Solutions, we have Ben Levitan who is going to be joining us to talk about credit card processing and removing the mystery behind it. There are so many levels, so many aspects of a business owner’s collection of money. The abandonment of cash, the no touch purchases and what are the hidden fees? Unmasking the monster that can be in credit card processing, right here on Bizness Soup. Ben, welcome to this serving of Bizness Soup.
Ben Levitan:Thanks so much, great to be here.
John DeBevoise:It’s a pleasure to have you on this serving. We’re going to be talking about one of my favorite pet peeves, and that is the credit card processing. That service where we’ve gone into the cashless society and now everything has gone digital. The first time I ever heard about the cashless society, back when I was just out of high school, my best friend’s father was chairman of the board of a very large financial institution, and he told me about how their organization was going cashless. They were planning this process of getting rid of cash deposits, going into paying bills over the phone. And I said, “Well, how does that work if you can’t pay by cash?” Well, things have changed. Let’s talk about the credit card processing. How did you get involved in this zoo of an environment in cashless society?
Ben Levitan:I love your story. We all have those original experiences from working with credit and debts and so forth. So for me, it was very much from my experience as being a business operator where I found myself offering credit card payments, like many do, to my patrons and my customers. And over time, I had the good fortune to be able to take a look at what I was actually paying and realized, wow, my customers obviously love this a lot and I’m paying a ton of money to these processors. This is nuts, I got to find a better way.
John DeBevoise:You say you were paying a lot of money as a business owner. What were you paying?
Ben Levitan:I was paying 3%, sometimes 3.5% of profits of my company to the credit card processor because it was an eCommerce business. So every dollar of revenue had a tax with it, which was the tax to pay the merchant processor so I could take a credit card.
John DeBevoise:And of course the merchant processor charges you on the gross ticket.
Ben Levitan:Correct.
John DeBevoise:In my experience, I used to have service stations and a truck stop and I would collect a credit card, and this goes back in the day when we had the mechanical swipers, and you had to check what looked like a small version of a phone book, it with microscopic print, and you had to check to see if that credit card was bad. But back then, you had the process and it was a 3%, but they charged you on tax on tax. Because I had fuel tax, sales tax, and I was charged 3% of that money as well.
Ben Levitan:Well, those historical practices have definitely changed, but the fundamental challenge, you mentioned the looking at the teeny tiny font to figure out whether that was a legitimate card or not. That kind of dynamic is through out the industry where there are opaque, hidden, deliberately hidden fees, surcharges, we refer to them at Delta Payments as taxes, that you wouldn’t otherwise notice if you didn’t take the time to go through the nearly impossible to read credit card statement. We haven’t even talked about what happens in those statements and how they might notice you to tell you that there’s an increase or a change in your formula for how you’re going to be charged. It’s an important, but very dysfunctional part of our financial lives is credit card payments.
John DeBevoise:Now, when somebody comes through my door and says, I’ve got the cure all to your credit card processing. You see various stores that have the individual readers that are connected to the cash register, and then you see programs or processes, units like the Clover, which is an all inclusive type of process, and Clover got sold. So you have all of these different ones and they come in the door and say, “I have the cure all.” What should I be looking for? What first question should I be asking that processor? Why do I want to do business with you?
Ben Levitan:Many businesses welcome the all in one solution because it gives them software to run their company. I can think of an organization like Toast, a terrific organization, and they have an all in one approach. So we’ll give you ways for you to deal with ordering, we’ll give you menus. They might even give you ancillary services, but you have to agree to work on their processing network. And what that forces you to do is certainly get some benefit, which you pay for, but it also forces you into a box in terms of how they’re going to evaluate and ultimately charge you for the use of their credit card system. And what that really means is that you don’t really get an opportunity to get a tailor made solution. So that’s number one, that’s the first problem is you get put into a box. And that of course is nothing any small business would like.
Secondly, that happens is, over time, the arrangement may change. I’m not referring to any particular company, but if you have a direct relationship with someone who said, “Hey, I can get you a better rate.” You might find that that rate creeps up over time as a service notice, as a terms of service update. Or you may find that the rate is very low, but then they have all these ancillary fees that they tack on per transaction, which can become quite expensive. So when someone comes in and says to you, “I can give you a better rate,” I think it’s important for any business to understand on what basis are you giving me that rate and how does my company stack up versus the other companies that you might be offering that rate? Because my business is different, I might have as many restaurants, for example, have now primarily a takeaway business right now, a takeaway for eating at home.
John DeBevoise:Right, curbside or pick up yeah.
Ben Levitan:Other businesses might have you calling in, they might take their orders over the phone, those are very different kinds of transactions. One is referred to as high risk, which is a label that the industry puts on transactions where the card is not present in front of the merchant. So they don’t have the opportunity, like you did John, to look at the card and figure out, is this a valid payment method?
John DeBevoise:They call that the wet signature.
Ben Levitan:The wet signature that’s right, there you go. Always like those old expression. Yeah, because of the carbon paper, of course right?
John DeBevoise:Yes.
Ben Levitan:As opposed to a business that is card present, which means the consumer is always right in front of me, I can do that inspection, therefore I should be paying a lower fee because the risk is much lower.
John DeBevoise:We see that when you’re buying online and now they have that back three numbers as another security. So whoever has the card in hand can turn it over and see the three digit number, I think they call it a CRV.
Ben Levitan:That’s exactly right.
John DeBevoise:And so there’s all these systems to ensure that the person with the card is submitting that, but as you pointed out, there are different levels of fees, whether it be the so–called wet signature, are you in possession of that card when you swipe it? Or are you not in possession?
Ben Levitan:If you don’t mind, John, it actually goes further because if your typical profile is that your basket size or your average ticket is $25, versus your average ticket size is $300, they’ll put a different rate on that as well. Even though a dollar is a dollar, that’s what my father taught me, a dollar is a dollar. It doesn’t get counted the same way by the processors in their risk management process.
John DeBevoise:And along that line, a company that comes in the door and says, “I have a better rate for you,” well, that may be at a particular transaction amount. What is your average transaction and how many transactions per month are you looking at having? And then that rate may be a teaser, it’s only good if you have like 10 transactions under $30 a month.
Ben Levitan:Exactly. A perfect example, let’s go back to a restaurant or a small business, when you post the sign for what your fees are, it’s not, these are the prices until you spend a certain amount and then it gets lower. That’s stipulated right up front, maybe they have a special on or something like that, great. But when you’re working with a processor, not only they want to know what your average ticket size is, they want to know a lot about your business. Is it profitable? Where’s it incorporated? Who’s the owner of the business? These sorts of risk questions, which are important in their process, and I think important in any financial transaction to understand all the variables, get factored in so that they can put you in a slot. And when they put you in that slot, it turns into a fee that frankly doesn’t need to be as high, we have found in our work at Delta.
John DeBevoise:It puts you into this box, and as long as you stay within that box, then your fees are commensurate with that arrangement. But what happens when you go out of the box, I’m sure there’s a provision for a separate and more improved fee structure.
Ben Levitan:Well, there’s always an opportunity for a separate and more improved fees structure. Unfortunately, it’s not tailored to you. And since we’re all wrestling with how we grow our businesses in the age of COVID, let me just to give you a small example of what we’re seeing in our business. Many online businesses are growing very quickly, much more quickly than they were pre–COVID because, particularly if they’re an online business, customers are flocking to them because they don’t get in their car or travel to visit a shop. As a result, they’re growing so fast and the processors are very risk averse, very risk averse. As a result, we’re seeing, unless we manage accounts for our customers, for our members in the co–op, they might be shut down by the processor, even though they’re growing well, even though it’s the same profile of the business, the growth rate has exceeded, as you call it, the box that they’ve been put in and they don’t quite understand it. And they’re worried, very worried that the merchant might be doing something nefarious, illegal.
And so rather than taking the time to engage with that merchant after they gave them that rate that you talked about, they just shut them down, because of their service and offering they’re experiencing a surge, and all of a sudden the processor just looks in the pattern of the data that’s flowing across, doesn’t make any phone calls and just decides, “Hey, you know what, John, you sure you’re raising horses, organizing charity events, seems like there’s a lot of people go into those charity events. Wow. Maybe you’ve changed your business model. I’m going to shut it down and if you can pass the test after I shut you down, I might turn you back on.” And that kind of disruption is completely unfair, and it’s kind of typical of how small business owners get the unfortunate end of the deal, because they simply don’t have the time, they don’t have the resources to go out and deal with their partners and deal with key suppliers when things are going as quickly as they’re going for many of these online commerce companies.
John DeBevoise:We’re talking with Ben Levitan of the Delta Payment Solutions, about what are the five most important questions you can ask before you get to signing a contract, go to bizsoup.com for more information on the subject of what do you need to know about credit card processing. Ben, as far as your company, we’ve talked about the problems and why perhaps I shouldn’t have credit card processing and losing all of my hair, we both have over the process. There’s such a plethora of choices out there. What do you bring to the table that’s different?
Ben Levitan:As you mentioned at the beginning of this, we are founders, myself and my colleagues, who come from outside the payments and credit card industry.
John DeBevoise:And your company’s, Delta Payment Solutions.
Ben Levitan:Delta Payment Solutions and the Delta Payment Cooperative. We manage a co–op inside of Delta Payment Solutions, which gives us tremendous negotiating power and also gives it a tremendous amount of transparency to the members, because we work for the members, we don’t work for the company, if you will.
John DeBevoise:So you work for the members, am I, as John and his horse and cattle business, am I a member of the Delta Solution?
Ben Levitan:Yes you are. You pay a nominal fee, I think it’s a hundred dollars now, and you become a member. And what that membership entitles you to, first of all, is the power of the co–op and all the other merchants who are like you and your cattle business, looking to capitalize on group dynamics to lower their individual member fee, processing fee. Second thing you get is a rebate.
John DeBevoise:Well, hang on, let’s back up for a moment. So you say it’s a co–op, am I to understand, as a member, that you are going to put together the best solution for my credit card processing through multiple opportunities, not pigeonholed into or put into a box of one processor. I’m looking at it, from a co–op, that would be the opportunity to be able to be shown a variety of choices and how they would fit into my business.
Ben Levitan:Very well said. So what we do is we take your profile of your cattle business, this is something that’s very different and not down in the industry at all, and we look out to our processors. We probably have nine or 10 at this point that we have qualified that we’ve explained our model to that are ready to respond as we bring interesting businesses to their attention like your business, John. We talk to them about what you look like. Profile, we ask you a couple of key questions about your business, we share that profile, and then we get the processors competing against each other for your business. And competing on the basis of knowing that they’re not just competing for John’s business, they’re competing over and over again with the co–op membership, alternative choices to get you the best deal.
So rather than saying, “Oh, I’m just going to negotiate with my local sales rep who waltzed in the door, and then I’m going to move on to the next one.” It’s like everybody on your street, everybody on your city block has banded together to get the best solution from all the folks who are walking up and down the street, trying to sell merchant processing services. That gives us a unique opportunity to serve the needs that you care about most John, lower costs, better service, and to keep that in play as time goes along
John DeBevoise:So as a member of part of this co–op, I can basically do an a–la–carte, I need this service for my business, or I have a different service, a different business, and I need that type of service and I can bring it under one umbrella. I often talk about, you don’t have to reinvent the wheel, you just have to know how to put a spoke in it and make it turn better, faster, smoother. And in this case, you’ve taken what is an insurance, you see this in life insurance, automobile insurance, where there are agencies that put out your business to bid and you’re inviting people to compete for my business, and then this network that you have, this organization at Delta, I get the opportunity to pick and choose who I want. And if I have a problem, I just give you a call.
Ben Levitan:Exactly right. We work with you to figure out what the best solution is. We may show you one or two, we may explain to you, we looked at five and we came down to three, and then ultimately we want to work with these two. We refer to that as the Delta Savings System. That system is designed to benefit the co–op member. Because how we make money at Delta, we get and negotiate for a rebate. Many of your listeners may not know this, but processors give you that initial rate, but unless you use that, they’re not going to become excited about your business. But if you use it at a certain level, you perform at a certain level, and process a certain amount of money, they’ll actually give you a rebate. And our model is to say, you probably didn’t even realize you’re going to get a rebate, number one, number two, we’re going to negotiate to get you a very high rebate because half of that rebate goes to you and we’ll come back to that in terms of how it grows.
You actually, over time, as a member of our co–op, get more than 50% of the rebate, and half of it goes to us to operate the co–op. Over time, as we grow, that rebate is going to get up over 75%. That the rebate goes to the member based on their processing on a pro rata basis, based on how much you did, and the 25% will go back to us. So there is a lot of reasons to use a co–op to help advance your business interests.
John DeBevoise:Well, I’ve worked with co–ops all the time we have co–ops in the feed and the silos and such where all the farmers come together and we get better deals and by going straight to a company and being put into that box, as we made reference to
Ben Levitan:You’re on your own. You’re out on that Island alone, negotiating for the feed or negotiating for the critical supplies. And what we say, having come from outside the industry, is there’s got to be a better way, right? There has to be a better way to advance the interests of the small business owner, of that merchant, against the interests of that very large and very powerful finance company.
John DeBevoise:If I had a product or service that I wanted to introduce to the Delta Solutions, that I think would enhance the, and we’re going to use the restaurants because they’re the most prolific, small business out there and certainly been one of the most devastated and the recent pandemic. So if I had something that I thought would enhance that you could actually incorporate, say an accounting system that eliminates duplication of effort. As we mentioned before the show, duplication of effort is my biggest pet peeve, where there’s so many mistakes that are afforded to you either don’t do it, or it happens incorrectly. Well, you drop one digit in the credit card and it’s like you dialed the wrong number. So if you have this opportunity to incorporate other services into the Delta Solutions.
Ben Levitan:We actually haven’t moved into that area. The area we focused on is very much in and around the payments situation. I’ll give you an example, you mentioned the restaurant business, or perhaps even in your own business, there is the opportunity, like there is elsewhere in the world, to actually ask the consumer to pay that 3%, 4% processing fee as a service fee for using the credit card. That can be referred to sometimes as discount for cash, sometimes it’s called a service surcharge, but effectively, and recently, Congress has allowed us as merchants to ask people to say, “Well, you want your points on your credit card I get it, but dinner was $45, we’re going to add a surcharge on that for a small amount so that you can use your credit card, as opposed to it coming off the bottom line for the restaurant owner.” And in this period where people are trying to stay supportive and connected to their most favorite brands and their most favorite places to eat.
We’re seeing folks take an open mind to, “Yeah, I’m glad you’re here. I appreciate you working through all the issues associated with the pandemic and being able to serve us your delicious food and being here for us to come and get a respite from our homes. I’m happy to pay that extra surcharge.” That was not something that we saw a similar reaction to pre–COVID. In fact, when we started the business, a few years ago, we started with that idea. Don’t you love your local restaurant? Don’t you love your local merchant? Don’t you want them to succeed and thrive? Why don’t you do your part with this small surcharge or this small adjustment fee? And folks were concerned about asking that of their patrons, because they felt while they’ve got a lot of other places to go and a lot of choices.
We instead said, “Okay, no problem. We’ll bring this product back to market when it’s appropriate.” So that’s a simple example of how the age of COVID has changed and how we have an additional service that we found that can help an awful lot. We have had questions about payroll, and we have had questions about HR and benefits, but for the moment the co–op and Delta Payments, our members are asking for us to stay focused and improve that bottom line savings that is leaking out the door every month, every week, every day.
John DeBevoise:There are many ways in which that money can leak like a sieve out of the cash register there. What are some of the other ways in which money gets sucked out of the cash register that employees might do? Or if something doesn’t go right, how can my employees avoid making that mistake or me too?
Ben Levitan:Well you make an excellent point about employees with their best effort, trying to process something, get the patron out of the restaurant, free up that seat so they can turn it. What we see now is much more of an emphasis on making sure that the product that was delivered the customer’s satisfied with one of the big areas, not so much for restaurants, but for other merchants is what are referred to as charge backs. Customer calls up and said, “I didn’t get what I paid for it, I’m not paying this bill.” And for you as a merchant that comes back onto you. So one of the most important things, and we all know this from our business lives is, give the customer what they wanted, what they were offered, what they paid for.
So one of the big areas we see is reducing charge backs and lowering the opportunity for repayment, for what is claimed to be a product that wasn’t served. The other area where interestingly enough we’re seeing people tighten up, is on payables, on the other side of the shop. Which is, go back to a restaurant, I served all my patrons, and now I have to go and pay my suppliers, to pay the electric bill, I have to pay my food supplier, I have to pay employees. We’re seeing ways of changing that actually, first of all, cashless helps an awful lot in this John, as you know. Creates a lot of other challenges and increases a lot of other opportunities.
John DeBevoise:Well, cash is very expensive to handle.
Ben Levitan:Very expensive.
John DeBevoise:You have to count it, it has to be supervised, you have to take it to the bank and look at the casinos, look what they spend to have that money monitored and such. So cash is not so much King anymore.
Ben Levitan:It’s not so much King anymore, and that’s for the reasons you just identified. First of all, it’s dirty, and in the age of COVID, people don’t want to touch potentially dirty things. But moreover, you have to remember to have the cash on you, right? You have to remember to have the cash accessible when you need to pay it and then the merchant has to count it. And hopefully the amount they counted is actually what gets deposited in the bank and doesn’t somehow incur any kind of breakage as like to say.
John DeBevoise:Or shortage of the cash drawer.
Ben Levitan:Shortage of the cash drawer, that’s a age old label, right, exactly. But on the payment side, what we’re seeing people say is, “Look, I’m not going to pay you cash, I’m not going to write you a check in 90 days, which is standard payment term. I’ll give you a credit card minus 2.5% now. If you want your cash now, and what that does is it actually lowers the cost by a couple of percentage points and you end up making money by paying your bills or said another way, reducing the bills you’re paying. So that’s another thing we’re seeing is extreme attention to the velocity of cash, when it comes in, but how it goes out. That’s where it can go out pretty quickly is managing that cash flow in such a way that you can actually reduce your costs. Very exciting new development in this field of using credit cards to pay vendors and pay bills. Single use credit cards, virtual and otherwise and they’re not going to send you a plastic bill, they’re going to give you a code. It’s pretty darn exciting.
John DeBevoise:And this is part of the co op and what you guys from the outside are bringing in from your experience into a co–op, into what you’re calling the Delta Payment Solutions. Just not a processor, but a means by which, and I like this, for other companies to bid for your business and then be able to pick and choose those services that you want, and then deal with you guys if I have a problem.
Ben Levitan:That issue of service and being a monitor on your account is what we offer our customers. We’re not the only ones that say, when you work with us, we’re going to watch what you do. But what’s different with our company is if we help improve your situation, we don’t lose money. We make money because we earn, when you earn as a co–op member, that’s our model. There’s no upfront fee. There’s no, we’ll do a bunch of work, and we ask for commitment because we’re negotiating on their behalf to get this better rate and to get this better set of fees and to get this better service. But we win when our members win, that’s the power of the co–op.
John DeBevoise:We’re talking with Ben Levitan of the Delta Payment Solutions. And again, this is one of my favorite subjects in the credit card processing because it’s always changing. And I see so many services have no fees, if you sign up, there are accounting services that if you go with this company, you get this accounting service. Are those worthwhile.? Am I looking at a commitment?
Ben Levitan:They are worthwhile, but you’ve got to understand a couple of things. Is this a teaser rate? Is there a methodology to how long this rate applies? What happens if my business changes and starts growing very quick? What happens at my business experiences a downturn and we’re not profitable for a period of time? How do you notify me when there is a fee change? What else is underneath the fee besides the rate? Are there transaction fees? Are there special, additional fees that get added on? Sometimes you see some things around security and so forth, and all of a sudden you’ve got this dog’s breakfast of fees, which ends up being unacceptably high. And I think the last and most important point you were talking about John is, who do I call when I have a problem? I appreciate you being here offering me this rate, or calling me on the phone and having this rate, what’s happens when there’s a problem, because we know as business owners, there’s always a problem.
There’s always an issue that that needs to be addressed. Do I have a supportive, do you guys have my back? Or are you just trying to push this on me? And our model, as I’ve said, is you join a co–op, we have your back. You’re a member of a co–op, we work for the co–op, we get paid effectively by the proceeds that we create for the co–op and those fees, as a percentage, are going to go down over time and you’re going to get more and more of it. It’s in our interest to grow, it’s in your interest to have us grow.
John DeBevoise:It’s very difficult when they come through the door and they say, “I’ve got the best rate,” and you’re speaking with a salesperson and they’re trying to get you to change. Oftentimes there is a fee if you cancel on that equipment and you have to pay for the lease of that equipment, the guy selling you, the woman selling you your new and improved service doesn’t tell you about the cancellations on that contract.
Ben Levitan:That is probably the question that I should have come to, which is what happens if I decide to cancel? And they may have sold you at a exorbitant fee, that little device. There may be cancellation charges and what we’ve found based on our experience in this industry and we’ve built up quite a bit of experience, both on the team and elsewhere, by the way, I’ll just mention business is very good and we’re hiring so please go to mydeltaps.com. But one of the things we find is that the process of untangling that contract can be done, you just need a partner to help you with it. And we’ve developed several ways to do that. And depending on the business arrangement, sometimes we actually help fund that ourselves because we want to have your business and we want you to help us grow our business.
John DeBevoise:Well, tapping on that, that would probably involve the volume of the business.
Ben Levitan:It absolutely would have to do with your volume, but it also may have to do with the services you’re using us for. So for example, if you do the discount for cash processing or credit surcharging, that’s a second service you’re adding. We may do your ACH and e–check, perfectly reasonable, we do that all the time, happy to do that, it’s another service where adding. And you may even look to us for the accounts payable and over time you may find you want to expand into other areas and we’ll be there for you. So we’re looking to build a forward momentum in the relationship based on our shared interests. And our interests are very transparent, it is the definition of what is Delta, it’s a core value we talked about from the moment we started the business, we want to be transparent as opposed to that traditional hide and seek you have to do as a business owner to find out what you’re actually paying for something. We think that’s reprehensible, and we will never support that kind of mindset.
John DeBevoise:Ben, your background, you’ve got quite a diverse background and it goes back into security issues. What about security in the transactions, is all of this being done in a cloud environment? And how is it being secured for not only my own business interests, but my customers as well.
Ben Levitan:That a terrific question. We qualify, first of all, yes it is being done typically on a network, in the cloud, as it’s referred to today. We qualify all of our processors for their security protocols, it’s one of the important things we do before we even would put a processor or a partner in front of one of our co–op members. That’s number one. Number two, we look very carefully at the gateways. Oftentimes, there is an interaction between the point of sale system, whether it’s a proprietary or not, and the actual payment network. So in our work, we allow for what’s called peer–to–peer encryption between our gateway, our front door into the network and that network. So everything travels as we process on an encrypted basis.
The second thing is, we can also support secure EMV processing. The chip, right? The new, a slower acting, but more secure chip. All of our customers are supported in that way. And then I would just say, lastly, we have an ongoing process that we do to review any updates they might have and any news they might have and what they’re doing in securing their network, whether it be through penetration testing, which is sort of the classic way that these networks are tested. You hire some people who try and hack back the network, and we’re very much connected to them.
John DeBevoise:Well, you have a rather extensive background in security, so I imagine it’s pretty hard to hack past you.
Ben Levitan:Let’s just say that among the things we care the most about is securing our customer’s transactions. And yes, I have a very extensive cybersecurity background, both as an investor and as an operator of businesses. It’s an important area and it’s certainly an important area that our processors look to us to understand what we’re doing ourselves with our own business, being secure. So you’ve come to the right place if you want to talk about cyber security.
John DeBevoise:And if you’d like to know more about what we’re talking about, Ben’s got quite the resume. You can go to Biz Soup where this show is accessible, the show notes, the links, and the five points on what you need to know about credit card processing, all available at the one source for business that’s Biz Soup, where we serve it up each and every day. And I could go on for a lot longer on this, as well as your other interests and business ventures and Angel and VC, but we’ll have to save that for another time and welcome you back. Ben, thanks for being on this serving of Bizness Soup.
Ben Levitan:Thanks very much, John.
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